00:00:00 Susie Pettit: Hello dear listener, this is a great episode to click on. I have Monica Packer on the show, and she is a recovering perfectionist who uncovered the truest model to lasting growth, something that addresses for all of us the, you know, how we carry this emotional load, how we’re doing more us, how she’s figured it out. It’s progress made practical. She has a new book that is out now that you can put your hands get your hands on. She is a podcaster, she is a coach, and she helps people just like you find sustainable growth by adopting this progress over perfection, that there’s not just one way that you’re not as broken as you think.

So Monica has a popular podcast called the About Progress. It’s a top rated millions of downloads. She served thousands of women online as a certified habits and identity coach and her new book, *Sticky Habits: A Woman’s Guide to Reclaim Happiness, Ditch Perfectionism, and Create Habits That Last* is out now, and you can get it at stickyhabitsbook.com. I’ll have the links below. Anyhow, you’re going to love this conversation. I loved talking with Monica. We really just connected on so many levels and it will feel like a warm hug to you. So thank you for being here. Thank you for taking the time for yourself, and I can’t wait for you to get all the goodies and tidbits and golden nuggets that she offers. Alright. Thank you.

00:01:33 Voiceover: Hi, this is the Love Your Life Show with Susie Pettit, certified life and wellness coach. Join Susie as she helps you with your wellness and mindset so you can live a life you love. Let’s go Warriors.

00:01:46 Susie Pettit: All right. Hello and welcome to the Love Your Life Show. Monica, I am so excited to have you here today.

00:01:53 Monica Packer: Oh, I’m really happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

00:01:57 Susie Pettit: Well, thank you for coming on. I we have a lot in common. Um, that you actually used to be a middle school teacher. I used to be a high school teacher. We have the shared wonderful experience of eating disorders. We are both moms. We have like, there’s so much that I’m just like, oh, this woman. And I like, we could sit down for four days a week.

00:02:18 Monica Packer: Oh, easy, easy. Any one of those things, we can be here.

00:02:22 Susie Pettit: Any one of those things. And what I want to get to is, is the, um, really where you have helped me so much in listening to your amazing podcast about progress and perfectionism and diving a bit into perfectionism because you say that you’re a recovering perfectionist. I am aware of my perfectionist traits, and yet my younger self, and I think many listeners might think like, oh yeah, no, I’m not a perfectionist. Like, do you see that pile of laundry, Susie? And do you see that list of things I’m not doing, Monica? And like the things that I said I was going to do but haven’t got to. Again, and I, well, I’m, I would like you to shed some light on perfectionism and, and how you view it, like what it really is and how it might be showing up in listeners lives in ways that are not typically thought of as perfectionist.

00:03:20 Monica Packer: All right. I love that we’re starting with this question because a lot of us wouldn’t count ourselves as perfectionists because we don’t think we’re perfect enough. And that’s not what perfectionism is. Perfectionism is a lot of things. I mean, we can talk about the psychology. We can talk about how it’s often a trauma informed response. It’s a it’s a lack of development, um, as our shared guest Dr. Jennifer Finlayson has talked about. Uh, for me, what I like to pinpoint perfectionism as is a misplacement of identity. It’s us placing our sense of self on our outcomes, and what we can get done in a day on our achievements, on our appearance. And that’s not just what we do well. It’s often what we don’t do well or what we don’t even do or try.

Uh, perfectionists often think that, again, they have to be perfect to qualify. But most perfectionists are on a—well, all of them are on a spectrum, but most of them are not on this overachieving kind where they’re like straight A overachievers hustle at all costs. Like all of the all or nothing. Most perfectionists have found themselves in the nothing camp, so they would actually call themselves procrastinators or lazy or non-starters or non-finishers or undisciplined. Like they would just go on and on about that. And you can see how even with that kind of, um, identity, they’re misplacing their sense of self off of what they don’t do or the foreseen mistakes or humanness really that they’re equating themselves with.

Uh, but regardless of where you are in the spectrum, you’re believing a host of lies. And these are ones that, in all fairness, are sold to us and modeled to us, and especially sold in the self-help and wellness industry, which really thrives off of black and white certainty. It’s easier to sell. It’s sexier to sell. It’s also easier as a consumer to buy. Um, but even if just you’re a woman who’s grown up in the seventies, eighties, ’90s, like this has been modeled to us as something to aspire to, as a worthy trait to embody, one that we should all try to be more like. And that’s because a lot of how we’ve been shown it takes to grow in areas that matter to us is that hustle all of the all or nothing model.

But what that really sets us up to is, one, again, that misplacement of identity. And two, it sets us up in many ways to the nothing side because we are paying prices for the all. If that’s the model we’re following, we are paying prices and those prices are our mental health, our physical health, our relationships. It’s our energy. You know, often burnout is a big price we end up paying. Our pursuit of all often costs us the nothing side that we end up on.

But the host of lies can include things like believing perfect is even possible, believing in the lie of overnight success, believing in the lie that who you are is what you do, um, believing in the lie of black and white methods, um, believing in the lie of arrival. That’s a huge one. We all think we’re working towards something, and then once we get there, then X, Y, Z. But that that never happens. There is no permanent arrival, good or bad or anything in between. And we forget that as perfectionists.

And if I if I just go one more step, I would say perfectionism costs us growth. Perfectionism costs us fulfillment because ultimately, all perfectionists are booted off the path to growth. Whether they’re paying a price that boots them off—burnout, health issues, relationship struggles—or they blame themselves for the first misstep or disappointment or total failure, and they just jump off the path to perfection to progress. Because again, perfectionism is the only way. So they think, “Well, I’m just going to step off this,” or, “This path isn’t even possible for me, so why try? Why even try ?” Um, and I hope we can offer a different way, a way where you not only stay on the path, the path is never ending in a beautiful way because that there is no limit and the best way ever. Like there’s always room to grow and to change and to develop and to pivot and to make life better and more beautiful and more fulfilling.

00:07:54 Susie Pettit: Yeah, you said so much there. I was just like writing so many notes that just with the very last part you said is like, really what it’s all about is, is our, is our acceptance of ourselves in because a younger me would not have been happy to hear this, that the path doesn’t end and that there isn’t this—it’s like, no, no, no. Um, if I do everything right and I look perfect and I act perfect and I, you know, follow all these things, then I will feel this certain way, sort of that like arrival fallacy that is being sold to us. If you do this, if you do, then you know, then everything will be fine. And then and that is sometimes enough to get us so that we don’t sit in the dark for too long. It’s like, oh, okay, well, if I just now take this peptide, then, you know.

00:08:44 Monica Packer: Or if we think like, “Oh, I didn’t arrive when I thought I would or wanted to, so then I failed, so I’m just going to hop off this path .” And the reverse of that is really—and I believe, you know, like I’d be the same. Like if I, if I had heard myself say this ten, fifteen, twenty years ago, I would have been like very disappointed. But the truth is, is progress is the longest game. And it’s the best game too, because you’re allowed to be human, you’re allowed to do it imperfectly. And owning all of that allows you to not only stay on the path that true change requires, so you’re in it for the longer game, but also do it from a different place. So you’re doing things in a different way and you’re coming from a different place.

00:09:28 Susie Pettit: Well, and that’s what I find the different place to me is the way that you’re thinking about it like that, to be thinking of self in a different way. Because when I’m thinking my old self is thinking I’m broken, I need to do this, I need to then, you know, falling off the path, but also people, you know, then it’s like, it’s like falling off the wagon or, or the path, you know, and then getting back on the path or the wagon, it’s like, there’s no freaking way. Like this is this is life. Um, but if I’m thinking about it, like there’s something which I very much was and still can go back to that, um, you know, damaged way of thinking for myself that it’s like I’m doing something wrong. Like Susie’s doing something wrong. You should have figured this out already.

That just feels so heavy versus the other way. And this is part of what got me to start my whole Love Your Life School, like a school. That life is a school. Life like we are here in earth school, that the whole point of this thing is to can we in our present day, accept that we are both. We are awesome and awful. Like there are things that are like, we’re doing amazing and there are things that we’re doing, like really unskilled and that’s okay. That’s part of it. And that’s great. And maybe we work on those things today. Maybe we don’t. It’s freaking okay because what’s the solution? It’s not like if we fix those things, then we will have arrived here. It’s like, you know, in my life, I’m like, no, in my view, I’m like, no. Then we’re dead. Like, you know, like once we figure it all out, it’s like, oh, okay, well, there’s nothing else for this little human to do.

00:11:03 Monica Packer: And, you know, and that’s the part of it too. A lot of people think that the opposite of perfectionism is apathy. And that’s not true. Apathy is actually a form of perfectionism. Doing nothing is a version of perfectionism. Yeah. So the opposite is not like of perfectionism isn’t just letting everything go and like not caring anymore. Again, it’s you’re on the path, but you’re doing it in a different way and from a different place.

And speaking to that different place, like as you just brought up, the internal side is part of how people who are listening can figure out: “Actually, maybe I am a perfectionist and a lot more than I thought I counted as one .” If you just think about, well, what kind of voice drives your behaviors? Is it a harsh, shame-driven voice? Is it very critical? Then I can guarantee you’re on the spectrum. And as part of this, like there’s also crossover with other things like depression or anxiety, like of course there’s going to be crossover. It’s not the only thing that may be part of how you’re navigating your life, but shame is one of the biggest drivers to perfectionism.

And as you just modeled for us, if we’re going to do the opposite of that, which is to me, it’s probably semantics to others—like there is people call adaptive perfectionism. But to me, it’s like, no, let’s just let’s remove the word because none of us really know how that even looks. But progress is to me is that. So if we’re going to go with the progress model here, then that voice is actually one of compassion. Think of your honest friend or a coach that you’ve had in your life that is kind but honest, who helps you objectively take note of what’s going well and what’s not, and what’s important, but without that shame-ridden intensity with it. That’s what we’re seeking to embody. And that becomes the the one-two punch of you’re on the path, but you’re pursuing it in a different way and from a different place.

The compassion piece is huge. And, and one of the hardest things to fix, honestly, but I would say the most important way that you are going to, you know, replace perfectionism with progress. Sorry. Um, because, because there really is no way to do that without working on that inner voice.

00:13:22 Susie Pettit: Mhm. Yeah. And I like listeners who are listening that I really want you to hear that, that it is. It’s like, what is driving your behavior? Is it coming from this like, “Well, you better,” or “You’re only good enough if,” or this like really bossy—I call her Bossy Susie—like that voice? Or is it coming from that more compassionate coach voice that’s like, “Okay, sweetheart, like you said you were going to do that thing. You didn’t do it. What’s going on there?” Like, yeah, there’s like—

00:13:50 Monica Packer: More curiosity.

00:13:51 Susie Pettit: Accountable. Um, yeah. And then I also, one of the things that I’m hearing you speak of is the other voice. I call her like your inner rebel. That is, that is just like, “No, no, no, you don’t need to do that. Like, like it’ll keep you, you know, off the path playing small. Like let’s, let’s sort of because it’s too, let’s not go there. You don’t need to do that. Like you’re, you’re good enough already. Like no need to, yeah, eat your fiber today or, um, whatever.”

00:14:18 Monica Packer: And some of us experience that as a form of perfectionism too, right? Because there’s some wisdom in that side that’s telling you, “What’s the point? Like, that’s not for us. Like that’s for those type of people or that’s impossible. Like that’s not even realistic .” There’s actually some wisdom in it. Like, so let’s pay attention to the wisdom part, but, but also not let it keep us in the apathy because that’s not the—

00:14:39 Susie Pettit: Curious and like the supportive, like the good friend you were talking about. That’s like, “Yeah, wait a minute. You said you were going to write a book. And now you’re giving me all these reasons why you haven’t. What’s going on ?” They’re not from a like you’re in trouble, but like, help me understand place.

00:14:53 Monica Packer: Yeah. So you’ve already highlighted one big way that we can embody that compassionate voice is curiosity.

00:14:54 Monica Packer: And I think another, another factor there is, um, having courage. And that may seem really strange to people because none of this sounds so scary, but if you’re living it out for the first time in your life, and for many women, it’s been decades of living in the opposite way, right? It is scary. It does feel threatening, and it feels really hard also, because part of that is you are no longer believing in the lies of perfectionism. So that means you don’t believe in overnight success anymore. You don’t believe in like black and white answers for everything. You don’t believe that all, of all or nothing is the only way to grow.

And that’s scary to release because it makes you get out of that start Monday cycle that you’ve been in for a long time or start January 1st, you know, and then go at it with all and, you know, 100%, 110%, and then suddenly you burn out or something comes up or circumstance interrupts it, and then you’re off. And so then you think you just did it wrong. You blame yourself, you think you’re the worst. And then maybe three months later, you’re ready to try again.

So getting out of that cycle is really scary if you think that’s what it’s supposed to be. So believing in this new model takes a tremendous amount of courage. And part of this path is, you know, we said it’s a long game, but it’s also the small game. It’s recognizing that the real process of change is small wins building over time. It’s not big leaps and it’s not huge effort creates gigantic outcomes right away. It’s small, steady effort creates small, steady gains that gradually do change a person in exponential ways.

But if you’re at the starting line and you’ve never tried that way before, it’s going to take a lot of courage. And I had one coaching client early on in my coaching who was terrified of trying a new way. And that’s in large part because she had been successful with the old way. And in many areas of her life, she did achieve great big things, but her prices were outweighing the benefits and she could no longer maintain the level she was. And she didn’t want to pay those prices anymore. But it was terrifying to be at the starting line of a new way. And I really challenged her to try anyway, you know, to try anyway.

And, um, probably three months in, we were seeing, you know, since these small gains are so small, you don’t often see them until hindsight. And about three months in, we were starting to have the benefit of hindsight and being able to see, “Wait, do you see what you just said there? Like you wouldn’t have said that three months ago. Or, hey, do you see how you did that differently than you would have before we started doing work together ?” And as we were, you know, collecting more and more of that evidence and it was growing, it was a huge moment for her. And I asked her, “What have you learned then so far? Because, you know, we’re just still at the beginning of this .” And she said, “I learned it takes the greatest of courage to do the smallest of things.”

And this is what I’m asking all the listeners to embody who like me, I’m sure like you in many ways, like someone who has been doing one model for a very long time, many decades, and for better and for worse, is scared to believe there’s another way and scared to make the small, steady efforts and have the steady gains that are very small. That’s what you have to embody: the greatest of courage to do the smallest of things.

00:18:26 Susie Pettit: I really, really like you highlighting the courage part because it is scary. And I’m thinking of the listener like, I guess I just want you to, to dive in a little deeper with what you’re talking about. The cost. Because I think a lot of listeners and myself included, you know, like the way we’re doing things is what’s modeled for us. What’s modeled for us is being the good girl overworking. You are what you do, you know? So like, if you are the one who’s bringing the freshly baked cupcakes with your hair perfectly coiffed and you’re like, then you’re the good mom versus, you know, and we’ve been doing it that way. And what we find in midlife is like that we just we used to be able to sustain it. We were like these little good worker bees and like, but then we start getting signs in our body or in our relationships or in our own, like, you know, that’s perimenopause, I think is beautiful for that because it’s just sort of the BS meter goes away where it’s like, “Oh, no, no, no, this is not yours to carry .” But thinking of shifting out of some of that, you know, the, the one who does it all, the one who is, is, you know, she is the one who’s managing the husband’s dentist appointments and the mother-in-law’s birthday gifts and the this and the that. Yes. It’s terrifying. Terrifying. And one thing you said earlier in this conversation was linking up who we are with what we do. So if someone is listening and they’re really feeling that, how could you help them in those small steps? Because it doesn’t happen overnight. But there are ways to get started.

00:20:09 Monica Packer: So this is essentially how do we figure out who we are outside of those outcomes. And not because outcomes don’t matter at all. Again that’s apathy. That’s still a form of perfectionism. You know, the ways we want to grow do matter. And there are really important areas of our life that we do need to see progress in and to change and to grow and develop and dreams we want to achieve. Like those things all matter. But we have to have an identity separate from them.

And I think it will help to begin to illustrate—oh, excuse me for hitting my desk. It’ll be helpful to illustrate this through just what this looked like for me, and then how it can apply to all your listeners. And this is not the application won’t just be what worked for me. Anecdotally, this has now worked for hundreds of women, which is really nice. Like it’s not just nice to see.

00:20:53 Susie Pettit: Yeah, not this broken unicorn, right?

00:20:57 Monica Packer: That’s right. Or a special unicorn. Like what I share should be, you know, applicable and, and something they can repeat. But for me, I first understood the prices I was paying for my perfectionism when I was approaching my twentieth birthday. Um, it was a straight A student in college had a scholarship, um, was doing extremely well there. I looked like the model of what everyone wanted to be at that age and in that stage and in the place that I lived. Um, you know, super good girl, super studious, always doing the right thing. And I look like I had it all together on the outside.

Um, but as I approached my twentieth birthday, I hit rock bottom with eating disorders and with that, mental health issues and, and ways that were incredibly, one, despairing and, two, dangerous. Um, I was essentially a failed anorexic. I’d been basically trying to do the starvation thing for ten years. And, you know, your biology kicks in at a certain point. And I got diagnosed with a new eating disorder at the time, which was binge eating disorder, among other things. Like orthorexia would have been as part of it if if that had been more of a talk then too. But you know, it was so shameful for me to have that eating disorder that I literally told nobody. Nobody that I was in treatment and basically fighting for my life. And I’m not just saying basically; I was, you know, in many ways that shame made me just want to die. Um, because of how like I thought, you know, I didn’t deserve, um, to be around because I couldn’t just control myself, you know, and it wasn’t about that.

Um, but because of how awful things got and how long recovery took, I went to the other side of perfectionism. So I went from all to nothing. Now for my responsibilities as a teacher and then as a mom, as a wife, a community member, I could show up for my responsibilities, you know.

00:22:58 Susie Pettit: Dial it in, right? Shell of myself.

00:23:01 Monica Packer: Yeah. Everything was on the back burner. Everything was just no, because I didn’t want to go there. I thought the only way to change was all, right? I knew I could not pay those prices ever again. And I had worked so hard to remove myself from those prices. But then as I approached my thirtieth birthday, I similarly hit another major rock bottom. Um, luckily the eating disorders were no longer part of it, but extreme depression and suicidal ideation and just feeling like lost to my life in many ways. I’m not sure who I was anymore. I was then a young mom of three little kids, and that’s when I had an amazing therapist who pointed out that I was a perfectionist and my jaw about hit the ground because I thought, like, “I’ve done nothing. Nothing. I haven’t even day planned in ten years. I haven’t written a goal.”

00:23:54 Susie Pettit: You’re like, “Let me show you my blank day,” where we’re like arguing against ourselves.

00:23:58 Monica Packer: I don’t read anymore. I don’t think about going to school. Like I don’t do, you know, I don’t do anything except what I’m supposed to responsibility-wise. And she helped me understand what perfectionism really is. And that started many years of really intense study and also practice in that topic. And her own push to me was to figure out that sense of self, right?

And I didn’t know where to start. And fortunately, I came up with an idea that I didn’t know was going to help so much, but it was one removed from goals and resolutions. Like I couldn’t go there yet. I do now—like I’m a full like goal maker, day planner, all those things again. I’ve learned how to bring those back into my life in a different way than before. But I needed something that was different, that was more about exploration, and that became what is known as the “Do Something” list in my community.

Instead of all, instead of nothing, it’s *do something*. And this is doing something to find everyday fulfillment, doing something to reclaim my life as my own, doing something to bring back parts of myself that I used to cherish or love or enjoy, exploring new parts of myself that I always wish I would have, or I see other people doing and I feel like, “Oh, I wish I could,” or, “They’re so good at that,” or I feel even a little jealous that they’re doing. And this list is made of things that would never hit the front of a newspaper. And it’s not a bucket list. It’s not like kiss a stranger on the top of the Eiffel Tower. It’s also not go run a marathon. That’s a goal. And that’s great, but that’s a goal.

For me, it’s things like—I’m going to read some on my list right now—explore five new hikes, take a day all to myself, see twelve movies in the theater, host three girls’ nights, bake something new each month, make a quilt. You know, these are things that are pieces of myself that I want to explore and bring back. My first list was thirty items long. I have now done eleven “Do Something” lists. I have never completed a single list, but each year the one I’ve made has helped me remember who I am and helped me discover who I am. And it’s centered me in ways that not only initially changed my life, but that continues to save and shape my life. Because there’s parts of me I always get to bring back into my every day.

I mean, thanks to my “Do Something” list this year, after twenty-two years, I joined a community play and it was my first time performing in front of people since my senior year.

00:26:34 Susie Pettit: So exciting. Yeah.

00:26:35 Monica Packer: Because one of my things this year is to explore hobbies. So every month I’m trying a new hobby and I accidentally tried out for the community play because I was going to help my kids who wanted to try out and just, you know, drive them and be in the background. And then I somehow got a part where I’m a dead auntie who’s screaming at everyone and running around the stage and crazy makeup and hair.

00:26:59 Susie Pettit: Oh, that’s so fun.

00:27:01 Monica Packer: You know, every year something has changed my life, whether it’s sourdough or getting out of the house or going on hikes. One of my first lists was going to a museum. I’d almost done museum studies as a graduate degree and didn’t go to museums. Again, I started reading again.

Anyway, that list is what has again changed my life, but it’s also changed hundreds of women’s lives in my community. And that’s why I recommend people start, because the deeper conversations will come. Like we do need to know what our values are. If we need to know what our identity is, we need to know what matters to us, what our priorities are. We need to know what characteristics we want to embody as a person. Um, we also need to know things like our likes and our interests and the preferences that we have. But to start, we need a pressure-free way to do that. And one that also challenges that inner perfectionist that is afraid to try and be mediocre at things. I can’t tell you how many things I’ve tried on my “Do Something” list that I’ve been bad at.

00:28:00 Susie Pettit: And it’s been the whole point.

00:28:02 Susie Pettit: It’s understood. I love this idea because, you know, what you were saying is it’s not like getting out of this perfectionist model isn’t about apathy. It’s not about the all or the nothing. And it’s not about like your “Do Something” list isn’t that these other things don’t matter. Um, and by other things, you know, that could be like mothering, that can like the things that so far we’re thinking like, okay, I’m a good woman if I do these things, you know, if I’m kind to my husband, if I whatever, if my kids are or do well.

And I think the perfectionist model is looking outside to see what people think and what’s, you know, what sort of external Monica and Susie are doing to make our insides feel better. And what we’re trying to do is shift it so we have our insides—like we go there first. So yes, these other things still matter is what I’m hearing. But like, let’s bring Monica to the table too; she wants to maybe try out for a play or she wants to do this.

And I also want to highlight for listeners who maybe got the first part and are already like looking at Monica—and I’ll have the link for her “Do Something” list in the show notes—but that she said she never completed any of them. And that’s the difference too. And I think this is a great place because you have a wonderful book that is out on habits. And you and I both, and many people I think, have used habits in the past as a weapon and a like, “Well, you better do this because then you’ll be good and you’ll better .” And I would just like you to sort of continue this non-perfectionist coming-from-the-inside way. Like help us out here. How might habits be something that are helpful to us to to make ourselves matter in our lives?

00:29:51 Monica Packer: Okay. Well, you clearly get it because even the framing of that question shows that you have a different sort of relationship with habits, and one that I hope we can all embody too. Uh, I fell into habits as part of this experiment of progress outside of perfectionism, right? And as I was challenging that inner perfectionist with the “Do Something” list, gradually I started bringing back parts of my life that I used to be hell-bent on as an overachieving perfectionist that I wanted to have as supports in my life—like goal planning, like day planning, like having dreams again. You know, things on that set seemed like it could be like this overachieving person again. But no, it’s from a different place. And it was more about if I know who I am, then my life needs to reflect that. And that means I also need support in getting there. And I need things that are helping me know that I am fulfilling who I know I am.

Um, and habits came along for the ride, mostly because I hit a plateau. Like I knew who I was and that was great, but my daily life wasn’t supporting that self. For me, it started as simple as I needed to learn how to sleep for the first time in my life. Okay. And when I embarked on that, you know, I went with the models that were given and I found them to be incredibly perfectionistic and black and white and in many ways, setting myself—

00:31:13 Susie Pettit: Just chuckling, thinking of some of the advice.

00:31:16 Monica Packer: Oh my goodness. Well, the first thing I did was I went on like this 28-day wake-up early challenge. And I invited my online community at the time that was very small to join me. And then suddenly I had 600 people saying, “Me too, I’m joining you in the challenge .” I invited people to the challenge; for me at the time, that was extremely viral. I mean, it would feel viral to me now because the algorithm has changed so much. But like I think I had, I don’t know, maybe 500 followers at the time. And I was like, “I am changing the world,” right, through this single habit challenge.

And, you know, the challenge was like, “No excuses. Wake up at 5:00, read, write when you get up .” Like I was doing the whole like early morning routine and just like sheer grit, discipline, wake up.

00:32:02 Susie Pettit: You check these boxes.

00:32:03 Monica Packer: Yes. And, you know, it was one of those things like, if I hadn’t been already finding a new way, um, I would have just gotten sucked right back in that perfectionistic cycle. In many ways I did because I thought, “Oh, that’s the way you just change a habit. You do this for 28 days and then you have it .” And I, gosh, I think I got to 21 days and it fizzled out for me, and I was the host of the challenge! And by the end, like the past few posts I did at the end, there were like two people now commenting in on how it was going great for them. And you know, that was one moment, but which tracks pretty well.

00:32:42 Susie Pettit: It does track! Works for 2% of the people. That’s taught to us out there by all the bro influencers. Like there you go. And then because it works for 2% of the people, but the masses are left feeling like—

00:32:57 Monica Packer: We think that’s what the model is, right? And so fortunately, because it was an experiment, I could kind of take a step back and gradually over time—and it took me a lot of getting hit over the head with it. You know, I got trained in habits in my coaching training program. It was a 300-day long intensive program on personal development. And habits was a big part of it and behavior design. So I was working on it myself; I was working on it with my clients who had the similar need of being like, “Monica, you’ve helped me figure out who I am and I’m working against perfectionism and I’m making progress, but I’m also stuck because I need to learn how to meal plan, or I need to move my body, or I need to journal to help me have clarity.”

And so we tried the same kind of methods I had learned from, and same thing: tried, failed, tried, failed, tried, failed. And that’s when I knew this wasn’t just a Monica problem. That’s when I realized this is all of our problem. And I know these women well. I know they are capable and hardworking. I know they show up for everyone and everything. So what’s wrong?

And that was my eureka moment of realizing all the habit methods we are learning and implementing are designed and written and taught by men. And it doesn’t mean they’re the worst and we throw it all out and we get our pitchforks and we’re like riding at dawn. It’s not that. It’s just more they think it’s gender-neutral, what they’ve uncovered and experimented with—which, by the way, is largely with other men. They think it’s gender-neutral, and it can’t be because our lives are different.

And it comes down to invisible labor, which I could talk to you about for an hour. But the short of it is our lives are different because we do more in less time. Seven out of ten tasks that we do at home are internal, and that requires time, energy. We get interrupted more from our male counterparts. And this is decades worth of research. This is not just Monica saying, “Oh, this is true for me .” This is decades worth of research. Women have markedly different time availability than men do, far less predictability, less energy overall—which is another word for willpower—and a whole lot less support because they’re the support for everyone else. And that means we do habits differently. And that’s part of, you know, that’s what pushed me to take what was good in the methods, but fill the major gaps that we have as women. And that’s what this book is about.

00:35:26 Susie Pettit: Yeah, I love this because the male-generated model is not flexible. And it is this like, “Do this at all costs .” And there’s also that, you know, when you were talking earlier about the voice behind it, there isn’t that like, “Oh, I get it, of course, because your kid was sick. That makes sense. That’s okay .” Didn’t do this for the last three days? It’s like, “No, you don’t get to fill out your chart; you’re wrong.”

00:35:50 Monica Packer: Yes! If you would give voice to what that is like, it would sound like a man’s voice: “Get up! Today’s your day! Like you’re the only one in charge of your life !” And you know what? I have learned that flexibility makes consistency possible. And habits are not taught that way. So we as women are going to meet the less time and energy that we have, the more frequent interruptions that we have, with flexibility, with compassion, with gentleness—and that will actually help us be consistent.

00:36:31 Susie Pettit: Yeah. My book is still on its way to me. But this idea that it’s not the perfectionist model—I call it like messy action or B-minus work—that if we can get out of this lie of success that you have to do it exactly this way, how does that help women with habits? And I guess I got to say, because I am a mom of all sons, that the model doesn’t help boys either because they feel like failures.

00:37:03 Monica Packer: I think it sets everyone up to fail.

00:37:07 Susie Pettit: Yes. But it is—as I love what you speak of, of the invisible labor…

00:37:14 Monica Packer: Yeah, and most of these men have wives at home, which is great!

00:37:18 Susie Pettit: It’s like, well, that’s just wonderful, so you can do the early—

00:37:20 Monica Packer: We all would love a wife!

00:37:22 Susie Pettit: She’s up with the kid who’s throwing up. But yeah, this allowing it to be messy. Um, I listened to one of your podcasts where you said you almost named your podcast “The Mediocre Monica,” and I just want to speak a little more to that, please, because I think that is a hard sell.

00:37:40 Monica Packer: Oh, definitely. It’s not sexy. It’s not certain.

00:37:43 Susie Pettit: Been like indoctrinated with this other way of “this is the way it’s done,” but how does that work? Because I know it does.

00:37:51 Monica Packer: Well, I mean, again, I could talk to you on that topic alone for a long time, but I think I can best show this to you with one lie that we get from the habit—like the bro habit methods—and what that actually looks like for us as women. And it’s consistency.

So the way it’s taught is consistency is you know what the habit is, you design it the way you want it to be (meaning like this ideal), and then you start on Monday, you do it for 21, 28, or 30 days—sometimes I get another number, but there’s always a number—and you do it the same way every single day at the same time of day, day after day, and then you have a habit.

Well, what happens if on day 20 of your 28-day challenge, Jimmy’s up throwing up at night, or baseball season starts, or your period starts? I mean, hormones alone is a whole conversation on why we must do habits differently. You have a big work project due, or whatever it may be, and suddenly you can’t do it in the exact same way. So then you have failed. And not only have you failed, you’re a failure.

That’s the model given to us. Here’s how we can reshape what we see consistency mean, and then how that applies to the way we can do habits. And again, this is just like 2% of what I have to teach you about how women can do this differently. There’s a lot more.

Here’s our new definition of consistency: Consistency is not rigid perfection. Consistency is doing your best most of the time over time. And a quick breakdown on that is:

1. Your best is not perfect . And perfectionists, we lose sense of what is true about ourselves and our lives and our own capacity. We lie to ourselves so much that we’re not honest about what really our best looks like. And our best is allowed to change day to day, season to season. My best right now in some ways is a lot better than it was two years ago when I was postpartum with my last kid. And I’m sure in many ways ten years ago, my best was a lot better than what I can do today. Your best is allowed to change.
2. Most of the time . Your target for consistency is more times than not. It’s not every single day perfection.
3. Over time . Remember we’re playing a long game here. You don’t have to have 21 perfect days. You’re playing a much longer game.

But as part of that, in order to be consistent, we need flexibility. So to do that, we don’t just design an ideal version of our habit that we’re supposed to stick with. Our best is allowed to change day to day. So that means we also need a different version than just our ideal.

So let’s say movement-wise, you want to get out for a 60-minute walk most days of the week. And you’re saying, “I’m going to go on a daily 60-minute walk,” but you know your target is more times than not. And over time, well then what am I going to do about my best part? Like if my best needs to be different for a day and I can’t do 60 minutes—maybe I just don’t have the time or the energy, or I got interrupted—what is a smaller and simpler version of that ideal? That’s called the baseline.

You need a baseline, and you need a really low baseline actually, for your worst of days. And then on those days where you’re like, “My best is 30 minutes,” you not only are consistent now because you’ve been flexible with that habit, you have the support you deserve from the habit. Because that’s what habits are: they’re helpers. Their job is to serve us, not the other way around. So that’s one way we can redefine consistency and how we can actually implement it: ensure that we have a baseline, which is a flexible version of our ideal habits.

00:41:45 Susie Pettit: I love this, and I think this is a good place to wrap it up. With listeners knowing that they need to get your book because you go into specifics there. But I just want to highlight a couple things just in that one example you bring up, because it all comes together. First of all, when you’re thinking of like, okay, making your habit be sort of—you know, one of the questions I ask people is like, “What can you do on your worst day? Like your worst-case scenario ?” Knowing that we’re focusing on the end game, not the goals.

00:42:23 Monica Packer: It only counts if you did ideal days.

00:42:25 Susie Pettit: And another thing that I hear you saying is you’re keeping the end in sight. It’s the sustainability, this flexibility. And I’m always thinking of our relationship with ourselves as a relationship that has three prongs.

1. It’s a relationship with my **present-day self**: Am I being supportive in my head and am I doing things that are supportive to present-day Susie?
2. My **past self**: Am I thinking kindly and giving that past Susie who had the eating disorder some love and not beating her up?
3. And then also my **future self**: When we can keep an eye on, “Future Susie is going to be happy if you do two minutes of walking today, or if you skip the walking because you’re in this perimenopausal blip and you just need to lie on the couch and cry .” It’s all okay, because Future Susie isn’t going to remember this day because she knows that overall you do the most there.

So you really bring it all together wonderfully there. And you do that on your podcast *About Progress*, but you also do that in your book in giving actual ways. This is why everyone needs the book: because you give actual ways to put together—you have a habit matrix, you have sticky habits, all these fun things.

Warriors, I want you to be excited to learn more, get her book, and support another woman. And so with all that said, if the listener today is like, “Okay, but what’s one small thing I can do to get started, Monica? What’s that one little step ?” Where would you direct that person today to, aside from ordering your book?

00:44:10 Monica Packer: All the work I do starts internal with the deep work, but we also want the practical application. So in order to get to that practical side of designing a habit ideal and then a baseline and then trying it out in a different way, I would actually start with the internal shift of owning that habits are helpers . That’s their job. If I can just start by reframing habits as something that supports me, then I can make a lot of other practical changes down the road with time. So that’s where I’d have them start.

00:44:47 Susie Pettit: I love that because that is just a much more—it’s the mindset you’re talking about, that compassionate, kind friend that your habits are here to help you. They’re not weapons.

00:44:57 Monica Packer: That’s right. They’re not like metrics of you being a good person. You get to design them and they serve you.

00:45:04 Susie Pettit: Oh, thank you so much, Monica. This is great. I will have listeners get on. I will put all the links in here to your book, *Sticky Habits*. Is there any place else you would like me to mention here?

00:45:18 Monica Packer: Well, for the book they can go to [stickyhabitsbook.com](https://stickyhabitsbook.com) and that will link to all the major distributors, including an independent online place if you prefer to shop independent.

And as part of that, I mentioned the “Do Something” list. There’s a free training at [aboutprogress.com/dsl](https://aboutprogress.com/dsl). It’s never too late into a year. I have women make them once a quarter and they just do a really short list, or I have women just make it mid-year and it never matters.

00:45:47 Susie Pettit: Any day is a good day.

00:45:48 Monica Packer: Yes. And then my podcast is called *About Progress* and we’re having you on as well, which is going to be so good. So stay tuned for that conversation. Again, it’s *About Progress* wherever you are listening. Go search for *About Progress*.

00:46:00 Susie Pettit: Search and follow. Yeah. You will find so many good episodes in there. That’s so helpful. Thank you, Monica. This has been a true joy. I love it, and thank you for coming on the Love Your Life Show.

00:46:10 Monica Packer: Thank you, Susie.